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Why is minigun so weak?

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Keri

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Post Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:53 pm

Why is minigun so weak?

When I was in Rebirth Base I couldn't kill the guards at POINT BLANK with avenger minigun using 5mm AP. What's up with that? My BG skill was around 110% and I always had a 95% chance to hit. It kept saying "Guard was hit for no damage".

Also, is there a time limit in the game or can I wander the wastes all I want?
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Muttie

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Post Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:08 pm

Re: Why is minigun so weak?

If they are in power armour, it is possible that their physical resistance against normal damage is so high that they literally can't be hurt anymore, other than with critical hits.
But this can be better answered by someone who has the numbers for AP ammo vs. power armour.
As far as I know power armour is: 12/40% and AP ammo is full damage and -35%.
Based on that you should hurt them if you hit.
However, it is possible that it's because the Avenger does maximal 14 damage per hit and the 12/5% of the power armour absorb that (almost) conpletely?

You may be doing more damage with JHP, as it doubles the damage (I assume 2/1 is +100%) and adds +35%, which, in this case, should be double the damage compared to AP. I think it should do 4 points per hit, compared to roughly 2 points. (correct?)

However, I'm really not savy enough when it comes to the "real number crunching" of Fallout.

And I'm not aware of a time-limit, other than "ending the game".
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Muttie

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Post Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:35 pm

Re: Why is minigun so weak?

Of course the Avenger is 10-14, and the calculation above (if correct) is only for 14. If you only get a 10-12, and perhaps even 13, with AP ammo, then the power armour should absorb it completely. JHP should still do damage even when getting only a 10.

But I wouldn't be surprised if someone corrects me.
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Keri

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Post Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:40 am

Re: Why is minigun so weak?

Muttie wrote:Of course the Avenger is 10-14, and the calculation above (if correct) is only for 14. If you only get a 10-12, and perhaps even 13, with AP ammo, then the power armour should absorb it completely. JHP should still do damage even when getting only a 10.

But I wouldn't be surprised if someone corrects me.

JHP didn't do any damage either.
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Muttie

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Post Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:12 pm

Re: Why is minigun so weak?

There is something wrong.

I've tested a Minigun (damage 7-11) with JHP ammo & 52% Big Guns on 3 guards (including Brian) and I did 10, 13 & 29 damage. (EDIT: I've tested it on "rough combat" settings, with 75% and did 66 Points of damage.)

If you use an Avenger Minigun (damage 10-14) you should do even more. (EDIT II: I've also tested the Avenger on a guard with 52% Big Guns and JHP and it did 34 damage.)

I think you'll need expert help with this one. It could be a bug (@Daemon).
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NovaRain

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Post Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Why is minigun so weak?

If you have Finesse trait, all your normal attacks will add 30% DR to target, but even with that you should be able to do some damage with Avenger Minigun loaded 5mm AP.
Uploading your savegame for testing would be helpful.
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Daemon

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Post Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:00 am

Re: Why is minigun so weak?

I believe that The Rebirth guards have some bonus damage resistance so with Finesse trait it can happen that you won't do damage with Avenger Minigun without critical hit.

The time limit is 10 years. After that your character dies as consequences of you know what.
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Keri

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Post Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:50 pm

Re: Why is minigun so weak?

Here's the save:

http://www108.zippyshare.com/v/vpcqzO6h/file.html

And here's a video of me shooting Brian with 5mm AP doing no damage, I probably did this like 10 times before finally getting it to record properly with OBS (everytime doing no damage):

https://youtu.be/b4uinSxQBpY

also, why the hell does he get 2 turns?
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Muttie

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Post Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Why is minigun so weak?

Keri wrote:also, why the hell does he get 2 turns?

He didn't. You started combat, were allowed the first shot, then everyone else followed. Then turn two started and everyone acted in sequence, and in that order the Guard was allowed to act before you.
This feels a bit unfair sometimes. But it balances the advantage of having the first shot.

Keri wrote:Here's the save: http://www108.zippyshare.com/v/vpcqzO6h/file.html And here's a video of me shooting Brian with 5mm AP doing no damage, I probably did this like 10 times before finally getting it to record properly with OBS (everytime doing no damage): https://youtu.be/b4uinSxQBpY

I was able to hurt this guard with a Minigun using JHP. And if you do have Finesse, the AP ammo should balance it.
Perhaps he wears an advanced power armor and the DT (of 15) blocks all AP damage, and when using JHP the Finesse trait brings the DR to 100% and blocks all of that damage, too?
Otherwise, either JHP or AP should do damage.

But we'll have to wait with a final decision, until Daemon returns with the save from the lab.
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Daemon

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Post Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:41 am

Re: Why is minigun so weak?

Yeah, JHP 5mm are still better than AP 5mm even againts armored targets. Plus Brian has ridiculous normal damage resistance :?
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Muttie

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Post Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:17 am

Re: Why is minigun so weak?

I hope I didn't confuse anyone. When I said:
Muttie wrote:I was able to hurt this guard with a Minigun using JHP.

I meant my own character (not Keri's) was able to hurt Brian with JHP (i.e. it is possible).

Sorry, if that caused any problems. I shouldn't have speculated on the answer.

So everything is normal in Keri's save?

Daemon wrote:Yeah, JHP 5mm are still better than AP 5mm even againts armored targets.

This is not exactly true. It does in this case. But not always.

It's just this percentage thing (i.e. percentage is not a “total” (or anything really) but changes depending on the sum).
i.e. 95% of 2 points of damage is still low damage, and less than 25% of 16. (avenger (14) vs power 12/40%))
But if the damage increases 5mm AP becomes better than JHP.
i.e. 95% of 9 points of damage is more than 25% of 23. (avenger (14) vs combat (5/40%))

It's just this odd case of a high DT (power armour) vs a low damage weapon (minigun), in which the AP ammo fails to work, as it's strength is in percentage, not total. And if the weapon doesn't provide the total, the AP can't do anything. As it doesn't add damage.

In general I would say that vs armor:
5mm AP seems better than 5mm JHP.
10mm AP seems to become eventually better than 10mm JHP, but not much.
And .44 AP (FMJ) seems worse than .44 JHP.

Simplification: 100 points of damage vs combat armor (5/40%).
44 FMJ is 76 (80% of 95) and 44 JHP is 78 (40% of 195).
10mm AP is 80,75 (85% of 95) and 10mm JHP is 68,25 (35% of 195).
5mm AP is 90,25 (95% of 95) and 5mm JHP is 48,75 (25% of 195).

Simplification: 100 points of damage vs power armor (12/40%).
44 FMJ is 70,4 (80% of 88) and 44 JHP is 75,2 (40% of 188).
10mm AP is 74,8 (85% of 88) and 10mm JHP is 65,8 (35% of 188).
5mm AP is 83,6 (95% of 88) and 5mm JHP is 47 (25% of 188).

From this angle I would not say the problem is the 5mm AP, but the weapon (low damage) or the armor (high DT). As 5mm AP seems to do what it is supposed to.


P.S. I've calculated this while watching a X-File, so there may be a bit of Moulder and Scully in it, but I think it's correct.

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